- Item: Three way fully horn loaded rig
- Type: DIY
- Posted: 2 October 2010
- Builder: PK
- Country: Denmark
- Comments: 4
Horn rig
This is my 3-way horn rig.
Bass: Straight, 29 Hz, hyperbolic-exponential (T=0.6) bass horns each loaded with double 15†PD.158 woofers from Precision Devices.
Mids: Conical front horns loaded with P.Audio WN-520N drivers
Highs: Horn loaded AMT pro driver from Beyma (model TPL-150H).
The system is actively tri-amped using digital crossovers and SS amps from GroundSound. Crossover points are 290 Hz and 1300 Hz using 8th order LR filters all through. The system is time aligned by means of the digital crossover. Some eq has been used too here and there.
A bit on journey that lead to the current setup:
I have had the bass horns since 2004 and started out using AER MD3’s in Oris 150 horns for mids/highs crossed at 160 Hz. While the AER MD3’s were excellent on acoustic music, they sounded somewhat ‘thin’ at times when listening to rock music, which I hear the most. Therefore, I sold the AER’s in order to try out compression drivers for the mid/high section (BMS 4592 ND and Community M200/B&C DE25 on different horns). While the compression drivers definitely had the impact I was looking for, I never really managed to get them sound as natural as I would prefer. Even though the Community/B&C combo was somewhat more relaxed and ‘open’ sounding than the BMS, I was never really pleased with the sound.
By using a light cone driver with a very strong motor (5.25†P.Audio WN-520N: Mms=10.61g; BL=16.43; Qt=0.20) in a conical horn, I believe I have found a good balance between the naturalness and presence of the AER’s on acoustic music on the one side and the weight and impact on rock music that I got from the compression drivers on the other. Until I settled for the P.Audio driver I tried out a several mid drivers: 8“ Fane Studio 8M, 8†Ciare 8.50 NDMR, and 6.5†Ciare 6.38 NDMR. All of these actually sounded pretty good, but the P.Audio came out on top. The Fane has a very natural tone, but died out at 1000 Hz. The Ciare 8.50 NDMR and the Fane were very close soundwise. But I thought that both sound both sounded somewhat less open in the upper register than I would prefer. This is probably due to fairly small throat of the conical mid horn (81 cm2) relative to their SD. The Ciare 6.38 NDMR was promising regarding its specs, but actually sounded less open that the other candidates – probably due to the tighter suspension of this driver.
The Beyma AMT TPL-150H is a great tweeter! It has a max SPL around 120 dB and cannot ultimately go as loud as the compression drivers, but 120 dB is more than enough for a home rig – at least for me! The TPL delivers very fast, clean, and clear highs, while still sounding very natural. Some of the records that I (almost) could not stand listening to with compression drivers are now listenable again. S- and T-sounds sound just right (with the BMS sibilance was simply too much)! Besides sounding natural and open, I like the larger sweet spot using CD horns.
Room left for improvements? Well, there always is! I would like to work more on the crossovers to get everything in phase. I would also like to try out a really good mid compression driver (e.e. JBL 2482 or may the new B&C DCM 50) on a really good low-mid horn (e.g., a 150 Hz tractrix or LeCleach flared horn – preferably with straight sides in an 80 degree angle in order to preserve a homogenous horizontal dispersion from 500 Hz and up where it meets the Beyma). Another option would be to get a really large and powerful high efficiency (pro) ribbon - - a Giant Beyma TPL - that on a horn will load all the way down to, say, 600 Hz. I would very much like to get the qualities of the Beyma TPL further down in frequency. However, such a ribbon is not easy to get hold of – at least not for the money, I will be willing and able to pay.
During the years I have asked many questions on the AA and the DIYaudio board (as well as other places) and I have learned a lot from many different persons. Especially guys like Bill Fitzmaurice, John Sheerin, djk, JLH, weltersys, RCA-fan, Magnetar, Bert Doppenberg, Jeff Robinson, Jean-Michel LeCleach and Tom Danley have been very helpful indeed. First of all I would like to thank all of you!
Best regards
Peter
Bass: Straight, 29 Hz, hyperbolic-exponential (T=0.6) bass horns each loaded with double 15†PD.158 woofers from Precision Devices.
Mids: Conical front horns loaded with P.Audio WN-520N drivers
Highs: Horn loaded AMT pro driver from Beyma (model TPL-150H).
The system is actively tri-amped using digital crossovers and SS amps from GroundSound. Crossover points are 290 Hz and 1300 Hz using 8th order LR filters all through. The system is time aligned by means of the digital crossover. Some eq has been used too here and there.
A bit on journey that lead to the current setup:
I have had the bass horns since 2004 and started out using AER MD3’s in Oris 150 horns for mids/highs crossed at 160 Hz. While the AER MD3’s were excellent on acoustic music, they sounded somewhat ‘thin’ at times when listening to rock music, which I hear the most. Therefore, I sold the AER’s in order to try out compression drivers for the mid/high section (BMS 4592 ND and Community M200/B&C DE25 on different horns). While the compression drivers definitely had the impact I was looking for, I never really managed to get them sound as natural as I would prefer. Even though the Community/B&C combo was somewhat more relaxed and ‘open’ sounding than the BMS, I was never really pleased with the sound.
By using a light cone driver with a very strong motor (5.25†P.Audio WN-520N: Mms=10.61g; BL=16.43; Qt=0.20) in a conical horn, I believe I have found a good balance between the naturalness and presence of the AER’s on acoustic music on the one side and the weight and impact on rock music that I got from the compression drivers on the other. Until I settled for the P.Audio driver I tried out a several mid drivers: 8“ Fane Studio 8M, 8†Ciare 8.50 NDMR, and 6.5†Ciare 6.38 NDMR. All of these actually sounded pretty good, but the P.Audio came out on top. The Fane has a very natural tone, but died out at 1000 Hz. The Ciare 8.50 NDMR and the Fane were very close soundwise. But I thought that both sound both sounded somewhat less open in the upper register than I would prefer. This is probably due to fairly small throat of the conical mid horn (81 cm2) relative to their SD. The Ciare 6.38 NDMR was promising regarding its specs, but actually sounded less open that the other candidates – probably due to the tighter suspension of this driver.
The Beyma AMT TPL-150H is a great tweeter! It has a max SPL around 120 dB and cannot ultimately go as loud as the compression drivers, but 120 dB is more than enough for a home rig – at least for me! The TPL delivers very fast, clean, and clear highs, while still sounding very natural. Some of the records that I (almost) could not stand listening to with compression drivers are now listenable again. S- and T-sounds sound just right (with the BMS sibilance was simply too much)! Besides sounding natural and open, I like the larger sweet spot using CD horns.
Room left for improvements? Well, there always is! I would like to work more on the crossovers to get everything in phase. I would also like to try out a really good mid compression driver (e.e. JBL 2482 or may the new B&C DCM 50) on a really good low-mid horn (e.g., a 150 Hz tractrix or LeCleach flared horn – preferably with straight sides in an 80 degree angle in order to preserve a homogenous horizontal dispersion from 500 Hz and up where it meets the Beyma). Another option would be to get a really large and powerful high efficiency (pro) ribbon - - a Giant Beyma TPL - that on a horn will load all the way down to, say, 600 Hz. I would very much like to get the qualities of the Beyma TPL further down in frequency. However, such a ribbon is not easy to get hold of – at least not for the money, I will be willing and able to pay.
During the years I have asked many questions on the AA and the DIYaudio board (as well as other places) and I have learned a lot from many different persons. Especially guys like Bill Fitzmaurice, John Sheerin, djk, JLH, weltersys, RCA-fan, Magnetar, Bert Doppenberg, Jeff Robinson, Jean-Michel LeCleach and Tom Danley have been very helpful indeed. First of all I would like to thank all of you!
Best regards
Peter
Comments
- soundofvoid
- 4 October 2010 at 11:50AM
- Excellent project that you seem to rework to perfection.
Although i had my share of speaker building so far i have never tried making a horn speaker-too ****e consuming
to make a full range horn system.
I have one question:why have i never seen a horn speaker with
a planar mid?
Since you used a ribbon tweeter
why not try to incorporate a planar mid (B&G,LFT,HiVi etc)into a mid horn?
These have inherently lower distortion than conventional
cone or dome speakers and would look a natural choise
for a mid...
- PK
- 6 October 2010 at 09:51AM
- Hi Soundofvoid,
Thanks for the kind comments!
Since I tried the Beyma TPL I have dreamed about a Giant AMT/ribbon to get the sound qualities of Beyma down in the mid register. I am still on the search for such a driver, but I think there are at least two reasons that only few people have tried to horn load a ribbon driver for the mid register:
The first reason is that most horn lovers like to have very efficient drivers, and the number of high efficiency ribbons for mid-duty appear to be very limited.
The second reason is that most of the ribbons I know of are designed to be used without horn loading, which means that they are designed to provide a flat response when used "as is". Putting such a driver in a horn will usually result in an uneven response with to much amplification in the lower part of frequency response of the given driver.
However, as stated I would sure love to have a Giant TPL!
Best regards
Peter
- soundofvoid
- 6 October 2010 at 02:14PM
- Peter,
there is the RT-8II from HIVI
with a sensitivity of 95db and good to go from 1500 Hz.
Or you could order the LFT-10 from Eminent Tech, custom made with neodymium magnets that has around 93 dbs and is good from 300Hz upwards.
And there is the "Heil like"
mid from Mark&Daniel but i don't think that they sell it to the public...
- PK
- 7 October 2010 at 11:00AM
- Hi soundofvoid,
Thanks for the suggestions. Since the Beyma TPL-150H, I am using at the moment, has a sensitivity of 102 dB/1 watt and can be used down to 1300 Hz, I see no reason for trying out the HiVi TR-8II.
The LFT-10 appears to be useful down to 400 Hz, which in itself sounds promising, but since the sensitivity according to the Eminent Tech website is only 86 dB/1 watt, it is not really interesting for ny setup.
Best regards
Peter